Example of interview for a Master’s Thesis on a topic of
D&I Coaching as An Essential of
Organisations: Mapping of D&I Coaching Process Approaches
May 13, 2021
Prague, Czech Republic
Interview conducted by Bc. Markéta Skokanová
2 Interviewee: Trisha
Summary of keywords:
D&I, coaching, people, diversity, feel, sessions, understand, inclusion, UK, question,
companies, person, realize, unpack, based, focused, clients, interview, process, conversations Speakers:
I = Interviewer
T = Trisha (Interviewee)
3 I
I just wanted to introduce myself at the beginning, because you probably don't know anything about me. So, I thought that I would tell you what basically my journey towards this topic was, and why I decided to do research on it and write a thesis. So, as I’ve said, I'm based in Prague, and have lived almost my whole life in Prague until I went for my first exchange in the US, actually, I studied at the University of Michigan. And that was the first time I realised that I had lived in some kind of bubble my whole life. I was surrounded by the same opinions, stereotypes, and prejudices. It really scared me to be honest, when I realised that I have some of those as well because I lived in an International House and I realised that there is like, no rational basis for that. So, I decided that I would really like to start focusing on the topic, but at that time, I didn't really know that you could choose it as a career. And it was not until I went for my second exchange to Australia, and I met there one lady who is leading like a whole department focused on D&I for a large company. And that's actually when I realised that I could focus on it and have it as a career path. And at the same time, I'm very passionate about coaching. I just think that combining these two areas, it's a very powerful way.
T
That's excellent. [smiling]
I
So that's how I got to the topic of the thesis. And I thought it would be very interesting to kind of explore how different professionals are approaching the process in different ways. So that's basically my main objective of the research.
T
Amazing. Okay.
I
So yeah, I just wanted to tell you that before I start interviewing you. [laughing]
T
Of course, of course, that's a great story.
I
So, I also wanted to ask you if you could briefly introduce yourself and describe what your current role is, and how did you get to this role?
T
Yeah, sure. So, my name is [Trisha]. I am based in London, and [name of the company] is my business. So, it's a coaching practice. So coaching is my second career because for 15 years, I was in advertising. I was in Creative Advertising in both the UK and the US. And I came to coaching kind of almost by mistake. I always liked mentoring and having mentor programs within advertising space, and almost used the words coaching and mentoring interchangeably.
And it wasn't until I really understood what coaching was that I was really intrigued by it.
And when I started my coach training, I think it would probably be to be a better leader and to use coaching tools and techniques. And it wasn't until I finished it that I was like, “Oh my goodness, okay, this is what I want to do.” So, it's interesting that you've come straight in here to the D&I coaching angle, because I came through coaching, I then started doing D&I
4
facilitation work alongside consultancies. So, I would do trainings, and I would facilitate courses for different organizations. A lot of that was women in leadership specifically when I was in the US. And similar to you, I had this kind of awakening of this, like, new language and new things that people were talking about that I just hadn't ever, even as a black woman in the UK, we'd never use such terminology to describe our experiences, so being in the US was a real eye opener in that sense. And I did a certificate in diversity and inclusion when I was in the US, because I really wanted just to understand more about what the language was and all that kind of stuff. So, I had coaching, then I had this D&I certificate.
And I guess sometimes, I'm challenged by calling myself a consultant. Because I've only been in this space for like four or five years. And I don't feel like a consultant. I don't ever want to tell anyone what to do. And I think that's because I'm a coach. And so, for me, D&I coaching is an opportunity to help people unravel some of their unconscious biases and do some deep work without telling them what to do, telling them what to think. So, I've come to it from a three-step process. And now I find myself in this in this sweet spot.
I
I'm really interested how the transition was because as you said, you focused on advertising and on branding strategy mostly before. So how was the transition from this world into the world of coaching and having own business after working in bigger companies?
T
Oh my goodness. I loved advertising, I played hard, I worked hard. I worked ridiculously long hours, I loved the people, I loved the culture, I really did think I'd found my thing in life.
But it was so incredibly stressful. And it was just taking over my life. And I just felt like sometimes, I wasn't the person that I wanted to be, I felt like the demands of timelines, the demands of having an agenda all the time. You couldn't actually develop people how you wanted them to do or how they wanted to develop, because essentially, you had an agenda.
You had to get them to do things in a certain way. And I think in the end, it was almost like just pushing against it. It was just like, I don't know, I don't even know what the analogy is.
But it just felt like it was just so much hard work all the time. I didn't really like the person that I was. But I never thought that I would ever work on my own from home, have my own business. It just wasn't something I aspired to. I liked being part of this collective community kind of atmosphere, and collaborative atmosphere.
But then, what coaching did for me, the coach training process, is that actually [pause] it allowed me to do the work on myself and uncover some of my like limited beliefs and think about who I am and think about how I show up. And after all of that, it felt very natural for me to set up on my own. And I realized the only thing, that kept holding me back, was myself.
And I also realized how much I appreciate my freedom, and working flexibly, like I want to be me 24 hours a day, seven days a week, I don't want this kind of drive things hard, and then sleep [laughing] because I'm so tired. I just wanted to work flexibly and to do things my way.
And so, for me, the difficult thing was [pause] actually marketing myself as a product.
Because that felt icky to me. I still hate LinkedIn, hate Facebook, hate doing anything on social, I hate saying I am the coach. And I think I don't know whether I'll ever come to terms with that. [laughing] But the actual experience and the transition has been amazing for me.
And I do think now that I have been a coach for a while. Oh, when I first started coaching actually, I always wondered whether I would go back to advertising because I now had the
5
skills to do it differently. Because maybe, actually, I just, I didn't have the perspective to come at it in a different way. And I always wonder if I went back, I would actually take it in my stride. And it wouldn't be such hard work. But no, I'm a coach, I enjoy my business, I enjoy working (inaudible).
I
That's great to hear. And I know that you are a certified coach by the ICF, I believe…
T Yeah.
I
… as I saw on LinkedIn, and you also mentioned that you have some kind of diversity certificate.
T Yeah.
I
And what kind of certificate is that? If you could just – T
Oh, that was from Cornell? Cornell.. Well, is it university? I think it's Cornell University.
I
Yeah, I think it's Cornell University or College, but I know which one it is, in the USA.
T
Yes, it was certificate in diversity and inclusion from Cornell.
I
And it was like a course or was it like a university course? Or?
T
That was like a three-month certificate.
I
Okay, thank you.
I want to ask if you could describe the whole process when you are coaching someone on D&I, how does it look like from the beginning towards the very end, so from, let's say, already the approaching phase, and then how does the process evolve and how does it look like?
T
Yeah, just to caveat that a little bit. So, I'm quite early on in my diversity and inclusion coaching space. So, I have [pause] I understand how my model is supposed to work. I have three clients at the moment, that are doing this work with me, but I just wanted you to understand the scale. [smiling]
6
So, um, the process starts with a piece of reflection. So, it's almost an intake form, but it allows people just to really think about their values, why this topic is important to them, any challenges they see around it, how they describe themselves, um, anything that they want to see at the end of the coaching process. So, it's a coaching intake form, but around diversity and inclusion. And that form they share back to me before I send them anything else, because I just want them to have that purest level setting, foundational piece of work. And then each session is almost a flipped coaching session. So, if a normal coaching session is that you turn up, you decide what you want to get out of the session, you have a common coaching
conversation, at the end of it, you have something you want to work on or homework that you want to go off and do. I’ve decided my model works in the opposite way.
So, I start by sending people some stimulus. So, I just give them maybe, and it depends on their reflection. So, I tailor it a little bit depending on what they want to get out of it and where they are, because it's a minefield. [laughing] So I tailor it a little bit. But essentially, the first part is for them really get under the skin of themselves and their own mental models. The first piece is about privilege, how privilege shows up for them, how they identify, just like letting them think about the different parts of their own identity, and how they're either empowered by them or hold them back. So, I send that work to them, it's probably about an hour for them to look through some of the resources, reflect on some of the questions. And then they come to the coaching session with that as a lens. And then I ask them questions.
And I ask them what they want to get out of the session. Sometimes they, for that session, sometimes they just want to see how it goes. And we, together, make a bit more of a focus area. So, we have that first session.
And then after the session, they can do some reflection, but I send them the next piece of resources for session two. So, I kind of chunk it out into “about them and their mental models”, then the second part will be about the context for diversity and inclusion. So, for example, if it's a coach, it might be their coaching practice and how they’re coaching. If it's somebody in an advertising agency, it might be some of the processes around advertising, the procedures around that. So, I kind of go from them to their environment. And think about how diversity and inclusion shows up around that. And then, the third piece, is around their
personal impact. So, what are the things that they can impact and how are they going to do that. So, it's a three-part process that splits up into as many coaching sessions between that as they might want to or have time for.
I
So, the number of sessions isn't anyhow limited, it just depends on the client and how much time they want to dedicate to the process.
T
Yeah, and I, you know, even with my [laughing] limited kind of first-hand experience with this, it's a meaty subject. And it can be pretty long. And I don't feel like other coaching sessions. I love coaching, I love my coaching clients, we have fun in our sessions, they feel really empowering. And everyone leaves at the end kind of feeling like there's something to do. And I can speak to them every week, and it feels amazing. With the D&I coaching clients [making a face], there's just more there. And so, I don't feel like you would want to have like a weekly interaction with somebody for the next three months. I mean, probably, I think it would just get a bit tense. I don't think you need that many sessions, I think you need to keep them quite [pause] well, not even weekly, and just have a little bit of time to rest in there.
7
There's just more to unpack. And I think you just need to be careful of that. So, it's not just a usual coaching relationship and doesn't come with the same output.
I
On average, based on the clients that you have coached on D&I, how many sessions was it usually? Or is it that you are still working with them and it's like a continuous action?
T
Exactly. So, at the moment, I'm doing a taster course, for some people, which is like, three sessions, but then the model should actually work on six sessions.
I
Okay, thank you. And what you are describing that's the part that you talk about your website like the D&I facilitation services, the coach approach or that's also something else that you you're still working on?
T
No that's different and that is essentially me running workshops. But the way I run workshops is not like a teacher or like a [pause] the coach approach for me, is that you share some
information, and then, the value comes through how people react and respond to that
information. So, in a workshop, it might be, “let's do this, let's have these outcomes”. To me, the outcomes is somebody else's individual learning. So even whether I'm doing coaching, whether I'm doing a workshop or whether I'm doing D&I coaching, it's very much about the person and how they make meaning from what we're talking about, not about what I have to give them.
I
What would you do say that are the top skills that the D&I coach must have, to be successful in this role?
T
[sighs] I don't know. I think that my… I don't know, I'm still working through it. Because I think that my value with this space is that I have like a real diverse background. And I have experiences that I'm still trying to unpack. I don't come to this from a place of racial equity. I don't come to this from a place of being a feminist. I just have lots of experiences, lots of (inaudible), and I'm interested and curious. But it means I don't often get really triggered by things. So, I see my value as being somebody that can be very non-judgmental and is happy to be in uncomfortable spaces without being triggered. But for somebody else? [pause] I don't know.
I
And for – T
I meant to ask you, have you done many? How many interviews have you done so far?
I
I think I have done like, 11 so far.
8 T
Wow. Oh my goodness. [smiling]
I
I'm aiming to have like at least 20 in total. So, I'm in about half of the process. [laughing]
T
Oh my goodness. So, what the other people say around like, what are the qualities or?
I
I think that what comes up is really focusing on the client and that a lot of D&I practitioners, for instance, I've heard, they are starting to share something from their life, or they are too focused on themselves instead of being focused on the client. So yeah, that's what I've heard that can be like the mistake that's quite big, repeated sometimes.
T
Oh, the mistake being made.
I
Yeah, that they don't focus on the client enough but on themselves. [laughing] But – T
And what do people say are some of the… In fact, what was the question you just asked me?
I
What do you see are the top skills that a D&I coach must have.
T
Yeah, so what have people said?
I
To be honest, I don't think that I asked this question in all the interviews, because I'm kind of adjusting it.
T Okay.
I
At the top of my head, I cannot remember now, but I will then send you the results when I'm done with this study.
T
No, of course. [laughing]
I
I'm sure there will be a lot of reading. [laughing]
T
That's fine. I just thought it was interesting, because um, [pause] I guess I [pause] yeah, I just think it's interesting. Sorry, another quick question.
9 I
No problem.
T
What's the background of the coaches you've been speaking to? Are you finding there's a lot of women of colour? [showing air quotes]
I
Yes, the background is very diverse. One thing that is there is that not that many people who do like D&I coaching solely. So, some people that I spoke with, for instance, they are doing all kinds of stuff like training for D&I or facilitation, and they say like, “Coaching is only one part of it”. And then I also spoke to a lot of people who have their independent businesses, but they are not necessarily only coaches, but they mostly describe themselves as D&I
consultants. So, their approach to the work is also different, but obviously, coaching is a part of it. And then, the third group I speak with, those are people that have the D&I director positions, let's say, for large, multinational companies.
And the second question was about women of colour? If I got it right?
T
Well, actually, so I've got another thing, that might be helpful to say now, because I don't think it was within your questions. But I think the diversity inclusion coaching, I think there's a piece on who that is for, for example, I also work as a coach for [name of a platform] I don't know whether you're familiar with [name of the platform]?
I
[shaking head]
T
So, it might be worth to Google, but [name of the platform] do coaching for kind of big organizations. And they basically have a number of coaches and as a coach, you have clients that come to you via their different cohorts. Now, if you imagine if you worked at Facebook, and you were part of one of the Black at Facebook affinity groups. At the moment, Facebook is offering Black at Facebook, that affinity group, coaching through [name of the platform].
So, I, as a coach that has a background of diversity and inclusion, do a lot of coaching through [name of the platform] with diverse professionals. Now, I think there's something interesting in the fact that just because you're diverse, just because you're from a minority, doesn't mean you need diversity and inclusion coaching. [smiling]
I
No, no, no. The way how I define D&I coaching is not for people in minorities, but more about, like, letting people explore their unconscious biases in companies.
T Perfect.
I
So, I don't mean it in a way of like coaching the diverse people, but coaching people on diversity and inclusion.
10 T
Amazing. So that's what I was wanting to... Yes. So essentially, when I'm doing D&I coaching, it's for perhaps leaders that are there to (inaudible) the relationship.
I
Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant.
T
Okay. That's fine. [smiling]
I
So, we are on the same page. [laughing]
T Yeah.
I
I also saw that some methods which you use in the process, or that are stated on your
LinkedIn, are the character strengths and the energy leadership index. So, I meant to ask you if you could just shortly describe them?
T
Yeah, sure. So, neither of those are specifically for D&I coaching. And I'm funny with assessments because I think assessments are fine. And I know people like to do multiple choice questions and then see themselves on a page. [both laughing] But I think that they're only as good as the conversation that happens after that. So, if you do one of these
assessments, then it's about the coaching session, all that is the insight to draw from. So, energy leadership is something that I did as part of my coach training, and that was kind of the methodology they use, which is pretty much like positive psychology, and it helps people see how they’re present at different times. So, are they using anabolic or catabolic energy? And how can you move them from catabolic to anabolic energy, so that they're more open and opportunities based, and less restricted, or conflicted. [shrugs] Ah, Okay. [laughing]
And then the other piece is their character strengths, which I quite like, um, the character strengths are based on 24/25 universal strengths. So, I like it, because it's not just about your strengths as they relate to your work. It's all of your universal strengths, you get to see how they show up. I quite like that it's not based on weaknesses. It's about developing your strengths. Leveraging your strengths, seeing where you're over index, and I quite like that. I don't intend to use them in a D&I coaching space but thinking that they can be for people – that really like that type of thing – they can be a good stimulus for a coaching conversation.
I
I think it's like, it's nice and kind of scary at the same time when you see the assessments, because it's kind of exciting to see how accurate they sometimes are, but at the same time, it's super scary that you just answer few questions, and suddenly, the software knows exactly what kind of person you are. [laughing]
11 T
You know, I think it's hilarious, because it's always like people almost view it as magic. Like,
“This is the person I am.” It’s like, “This is the person you said you are.” [laughing] You know.
I
That's true.
T
So that's why I don't know.
I
I also want to ask when you are coaching someone on D&I, is there something that you put most emphasis on during the process, I know that everyone's on a different, let's say, step in the journey and has kind of different issues or unconscious biases they want to explore. But if there is something that you always really focus on during the process, and always emphasize no matter who you are working with?
T
Yeah, well, I think the important thing for me is not to rush to conclusions. There is no quick fix. I was talking to a friend, actually on Monday, about Black Lives Matter, and oh, no, I wasn't, I was just talking to her generally. But she was saying that she'd had this family situation where a member of her extended family had said, “You know, I think we've had enough, and I think you just have to move past it now. You know, we've done Black Lives Matter.” And I think that that's because people just want a result. People just want to know they've done it and know the answers, move on. I think the thing that I stress is that this is just a journey. I haven't done all the work myself yet. It's just about this being a heightened sense of awareness. So, you continue to do this work. And so, I think it's just being comfortable with the messy middle of it all. [smiling]
I
That's a great answer and great insight. And I mean, like, it's true, because this topic definitely doesn't work in a way that you can just resolve it in a day and then just move on but it's a continuous action and it will still take, I think, many, many years of work.
Also, when you are coaching someone on D&I, do you focus on some specific types of diversity that might be most relevant to the industry the person is in or the location? Or do you really look at it from the broad perspective of the general diversity?
T
So, this is, I guess, probably based on the fact of how new I am in this area. I want to be very general, but I don't want to go to diversity of thought, because I think that's a cop out. But I think really, really looking at different diversity that was related to different minorities as relates to different identities. But I find myself, just because of I haven't been in this space for very long, I feel like some of my resources are very race or gender based. So, I try to bring in, whether it be sexuality, whether it be ability, I try to be cognizant of those things. But I just think that the balance is still off. But I think maybe that's natural. I don't know.
12 I
I think it definitely is. And I think that throughout the time, it may become clear, or maybe, it's actually a good way how you are describing it.
T
I mean, [pause] I guess, because I play around with the thought of like equality versus equity a lot. And so maybe, maybe that my topics are being given a correct amount of representation based on how those minorities play in society. But maybe that's the point of it. And the fact that actually, I have to go do more work to make sure that those identities are held up. I don't, I don't know. I think this is the thing. This is why I say it's a sort of minefield, because
whenever I start thinking, I'm just like, “Oh, there's more things to think about”. [laughing]
I
I understand. For me, it's also that still on a lot of the topics, I haven't made my mind yet, and it takes me to kind of actually find, like, my opinion…
T
Yeah [laughing]
I
… and my take on things. So, [laughing] I understand.
T
I generally decided that I don't really have much opinion on most things, because if you [laughing] I just, I thought, it's a, um, what have I said? Strong, um, [pause] strong opinions, loosely held. [laughing] (inaudible) strong opinions. And somebody says something to me.
And I'm like, “Yeah, that's wrong. I don't think that at all.” [laughing]
I
I also want to ask that now, you are based in London, but maybe you also have a comparison with the US, as what you see as the most, let's say, burning issues connected to D&I or challenges for D&I in the place where you are coaching, and it could be compared with the US as well.
T
Sure. So, I spent the majority of my time coaching in the US, and have been really fortunate in the fact that, well, fortunate in a way that we're in a pandemic, and everyone's virtual, which is terrible. [laughing] But I've kept a lot of my clients and my client base in the US is growing. And so that's been good. But I also have a lifetime of network in the UK. So, I've been able to build business. So, I thought that I would move to the UK, and my business would go from US to UK. But it's been more of a US and UK now.
It's really interesting, because as you think about diversity and inclusion in the two different spaces, they're so different, and because there's such a background, and you know, when I left the UK, which was six years ago, we weren't talking about diversity. We weren't talking about inclusion. We weren't talking about equity. These conversations were not happening. The US has been having these conversations for years and, you know, it's a country that has race as its base and racial inequity at its base. In the US, I say, I'm a DEI practitioner, diversity, equity and inclusion. And in the UK, I'm an EDI, um, practitioner. Equality, diversity and inclusion.
So those are very different, then you have the different identities and what the privileges are
13 in each.
Class is such a big thing in the UK, but class isn't one of the [sights] one of the privileges people talk about as much in the US. So, it's not a translate what I do in the US for what I do in the UK. And I'm still learning more of the language of the UK. But I think if I'm going to talk with a London, UK, hat on, I think it's unpacking class. I think because class is not just about [pause] class has so many identities underneath it, class can be about your financial situation, can be about your educational situation, can be about your regional situation, whether you're from the north, whether you're from the south, can be about your ethnicity, so I think if I will allow my head to take on something new, it would just be like, “How do I have conversations around unpacking class in the UK?” Because I think that we all use the word class very lazily.
I
The class would probably be the biggest challenge or upcoming challenge in the UK. And is there something similar in the US that you perceive as challenging as this?
T
I think everything in the US is challenging. [laughing] I think it is the reality of racial trauma.
I Yeah.
T
And my experience in life, when you talk about Black Lives Matter in the US versus Black Lives Matter in the UK. I found it really difficult in the summer in London, to have those conversations in London, because it's different conversation because the US, it's one of trauma, and it's one of trauma that people feel. And I speak to my friends and my husband's black American. And I think it's so heavy. It's so [pause] so… it's just the weight of that. And what that means. You can't deal with that in a class. So, I had, do you mind me sharing these?
These examples?
I
No, no, no problem. Go ahead.
T
Are they helpful or not? I mean, tell me.
I
Yeah, yeah. [laughing]
T
So, I had two conversations, actually, was it yesterday? I think it was yesterday. So, the first conversation was with a friend of mine, who's based in southern state, Alabama? Something like that. And she went and had her COVID jab. And she had her first COVID jab, and she needed to do it because she has to do a project. And in order to do this a certain amount of travel, she has to be vaccinated. And she went and got it done. And all of a sudden, she's just incredibly emotional. And she was incredibly emotional, because of the history of how black people have been researched upon, have been treated from a health care point of view, she realized in that moment that she does not trust America. She does not trust. She's like, “I
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understand the what, I understand that vaccines work. I understand the political reason to protect people, I understand all of these things. But I had this overwhelming feeling of my distrust of America, and what they were doing to me, what they were putting in my arm, what was going to happen as a result.” So that was like huge. And she said she didn't even realize she had all that emotion around it until it came to it.
And then my husband is now living in the US. And he's, um, updating his LinkedIn profile and doing all of that, that kind of things I hate. He hates LinkedIn, and he's always saying that I hated LinkedIn. And I was telling him, “Okay, now, connect with these people, build up this,” giving him some tips. And he was almost getting anxious with it. And then he said,
“When I was first on LinkedIn, like six, eight years ago, white colleagues weren't connecting with their black colleagues, they didn't want their black colleagues to be amongst their professional network.” And he just had this feeling of “I hate LinkedIn”. And I just think that those two experiences for people, I don't think in the UK, you would ever get quite such a visceral reaction. [pause] And I think that's... Yeah, I don't know how you work with that.
That's not overnight change. That is where we plan to move to as a nation.
I
Yes, definitely. And also taking into account all the history and how it was developing. And it's kind of scary to see what the current state is or what the state even few years ago was, or in the last century. It's not that many years ago.
T Yeah.
I
So, it's kind of scary. And I think that, of course, it's sad that the transition, it takes a long time. But from the historical point of view, it's unfortunately the fact that it will still take some years or maybe even decades before the situation will improve.
T
Yeah. Can you hold on for a moment? I just need to reply to…
I Sure.
T
…a text. Sorry. Thank you.
T
Yeah. Got it.
I
[smiling] I would like to move to a bit different topic. And that is the perception of D&I coaching, because this is something very interesting for me. And maybe at the beginning, I just wanted to ask if you have some approximate of how many people you have coached, because I know that you said you have currently three clients for D&I, right?
T Yeah.
15 I
So, in general, if you have some approximate of how many people you have coached already.
T
Probably only five.
I
And that was on D&I or generally coaching as such?
T
Oh, no coaching lots. But D&I, yeah, the five.
I
And for the for the general coaching, do you also have some very rough approximate?
T
Oh, for the number of people?
I
Yeah, yeah.
T
I would say [pause] 80.
I
Wow. This always seems to be the hardest question of the interview. And every time people are like, “Oh my god, I don't know”. [both laughing] And I didn't realize that it would always be the most difficult question.
Anyway, I wanted to ask, from your experience, how do people in companies perceive D&I coaching? And it could be both the ones that actually went through it, and the group that is kind of on the outside and has only heard about it. And if you have faced some resistance in this area.
T
Yeah. I don't really know. If I were to give you an anecdotal response, I would say that it sounds like a great thing. I'd say that those who aren't having it, think it's like, “Oh, I can completely see the value”, “Oh, it's going to be amazing”. So, if you're HR or l&d
professional, you'll be like, “I can see why our leader should be doing this”. I think for people that would be the clients, I think it's a lot. I think it can just be like, “I don't know what to expect”, “I don't know if I want this” [pause] you have to be pretty vulnerable. [laughing] I don't think it's an easy sell.
I
Yeah, for sure.
I don't know if you can answer this, but also from your experience from what you have perceived, is D&I coaching something voluntary organizations or is it something that, for instance, people working at some roles, such as managers or leaders, need to go through?
16 T
I'm not sure I feel like [pause] I'm really excited about hearing your research around this to be honest, because I [pause] I feel like it would be that people would probably be told that there is an opportunity to do this, and they would do it. I feel like it could be such a [pause]
sensitive topic, that I feel like people need to really want to do it. Because otherwise, I think you're setting yourself up for more resistance, more defensiveness. And yeah, I feel like [pause] it's an opportunity that should be there for people but given the correct amount of weight, that you know, “This is something that you can do.” And some say, “Yes, I want to do this, and I'm aware of how heavy it might be. But I feel that responsibility”.
I
And, for instance, for D&I training or facilitation, as you said that you deliver this type as well. For this one, do you know if this is something that only people at certain roles go through? Or if it's voluntary and whoever can go through it?
T
No, that's much more mandatory, but mandatory in terms of… Yeah, mandatory, not in terms of everybody at this level has to do it. But in terms of we are making this training available to these people, and those people should do it. I don't know what the difference is actually, but [laughing] but, uh, somewhat mandatory, (inaudible) self-selected.
I
And so, it's not for the whole organization, like people working at all levels.
T
Sometimes. It really does depend on what the training is, and what the reasons are for wanting it.
I
And in your opinion, do you think that people working only at leadership or managerial positions should have D&I coaching accessible, or that it should be accessible for everyone in the company if they would be interested?
T
I think everyone needs to do the deep work around this. I mean, we all live in our own bubbles. And if we're going to understand biases at all, we all have to reflect on this, we all have to understand just how convoluted it is, and what it really means, so I don't think that necessarily means everyone has to have coaching. If I worked in an organization, for example, that, you know, coaching can be expensive. So, if there were only certain people that we could do that for, it would be the people on the frontline of delivering programs, and so on and so forth. But then, I would definitely be making those reflective exercises available to everyone, having group peer mentoring sessions around those exercises, you can create a forum for D&I coaching or peer coaching, without having to invest in a coach to do it. So, I think everyone should do the deep work. But of course, who has access to a diversity and inclusion coach will likely be based on who they are.
I
One thing that also came up, actually, in one of my interviews yesterday, was that they do, in a company, some kind of listening sessions, and that it's accessible to people on all different
17
levels. And it was, for instance, during the Black Lives Matter in the US last year, and people working at all levels could share their thoughts and there would be a discussion, and it would be also connected with the CEO or the management that would attend. So, I think that
sessions like this are very powerful when you really show the people that you care about them, and they can express whatever feelings this is starting. Also, the lady mentioned that she was surprised how open people were and how willing they were to share all their experiences and feelings and how vulnerable they were willing to be as well.
T Yeah.
I
One more question about the D&I coaching process, is it something that's usually like proposed from the HR side that they tell them, “Okay, here is the option to have this and this coaching”? Or is it that people themselves working in the organizations more request and contact the HR department that they would want to have something like that?
T
No, I believe it's something that HR would make available to people rather than people requesting it.
I
Another section that I'm very interested in is obtaining the needed resources for D&I coaching or D&I in general from management –
T
So, obtaining the?
I
The needed resources for D&I and D&I coaching, because that's, from the articles and everything I've read, quite a struggle. So, I want to ask, from your experience, if you have faced some difficulties when trying to convince the management of the importance of D&I coaching, or you have heard of someone who faced this issue in the company and maybe what were the most common arguments against it?
T
Well, I think that it's, um, [pause] the budget for learning and development is generally pretty fixed. And every company is going to have the same priorities. And essentially, in spending that budget you need to work out what is going to have the biggest impact. And I think often the biggest impact is seen as the thing that we can touch as many people as possible with. I feel like when companies know that they have unconscious bias training that's happening everywhere, when they know they've got employee resource groups that are all set up, when they know that they're looking at bias through the pipeline, when they're looking at their recruitment strategy, when they are really making D&I a priority, then, diversity and inclusion coaching comes into the mix. But it's not going to be the first thing that comes into the mix.
I
So, you mean that like first thing is going to be, as you said, the unconscious bias training and the other.
18 T
Yeah.
I
Okay. Yeah.
T
I think it’s a large investment, that is hard to prove that that is going to be the thing that has the greatest impact. Because you deliver it one to one.
I
Yeah, that's actually then what I also will be asking about, like the evaluation and the impact of it, because I believe that it can have a large impact, especially if it's, for instance, someone in a leadership position, and then it's really reflected in how he or she are treating their employees and team members. But sometimes, for the management, it's hard, if they don't have the business case and the specific numbers, to treat it as a strategy for like development of new product or equally like that.
T
Exactly. Yeah.
I
What do you think is the recipe or the way to actually persuade the management of the importance of D&I or D&I coaching?
T
Oh, I don't know. But if he if you find out, let me know. [laughing] Okay, I mean, I […] I don't know. I wouldn't be able to do it.
I
That's actually interesting that for this one, I got like all different answers every time. One that I've heard more times was really finding the why, like, why the organization wants to do it, or, as I've said, building up the business case, and really showing the management the turnover rates, and any other numbers to really show them that this is something important.
And I think there are answers like that, that are kind of academic. And that is what should happen. But I don't know if the realities are that you convince them of the why. I don't know, it just feels quite [pause] yeah, theoretical.
I
And I believe that it in every organization, it's also very different how to approach it and what works.
T
Yeah. And, you know, for example, with coaching, we generally say, “If you want to bring somebody in as a coaching client, you always want to give them the experience of coaching, because you give them experience of great coaching, and then they buy into that, but you can't just talk about coaching, and somebody feel that connection with it.”
19
So maybe the answer is to actually give somebody the experience of diversity and inclusion coaching on a small degree, so that they feel the results for themselves. And they see what…
so I don't know, I'm just (inaudible). [laughing] But that's why I don't think you can just [pause] I don't think you're going to say, “Oh, convince them of the why”, or like, “Oh, yeah, give them the numbers”. Maybe there are other ways too, but I don't know, because I just don't think this is prevalent.
I
Yeah, yeah.
I know that then in coaching, the vulnerability and trust are very important. So, I wanted to ask, in your opinion, if it matters if the D&I coach is internal, or if there is someone who is doing it externally and delivering it for the company.
T
[sighs] I think it could be either. I mean, as long as internally [pause] the person can be trusted, and that person's expertise in the area is also trusted. And the confidentiality is also about to be honoured. So, I don't think it has to be an external person, but usually, it's easier to tick those boxes if the person's external.
I
As I said, I also want to pay attention to the evaluation and the impact of D&I coaching. So, I wanted to ask, how is the efficiency of the D&I coaching process measured and evaluated, if somehow?
T
I don't know. [laughing] I don't know, um. And I don't know whether I would include any kind of pre and post survey. It might actually be about awareness and how somebody feels that they are able to have conversations across difference. Whether somebody feels that they have the tools and language to face certain challenges. So, I think that there is a certain amount of qualitative [pause] confidence building, that's the thing that you could measure.
Um, you could see what they impacted near that follows. But I don't know how much of the test that would be because could you do it versus the year before, there would be external factors. (inaudible) But I think if you wanted an easy measurement for pre and post, it would be confidence in talking about, in tackling D&I.
I
And from the clients that you are working with on D&I, is there some way that you measure it? Or if after some time that you coach them, you, for instance, check in? If there is some way that you are evaluating it?
T
I haven't, but now I'm thinking I should. Because I think I'm using more like anecdotal, “How was that for you? What were your insights?”, but I'm not actually looking at that pre and post.
From what I've just said, it would be relatively easy to do that. And maybe I could just do it in the end. But I’d no, I'd want to do a pre and post.
I
Yeah, or check-in after some time. As I said, then in the results of the research, there will be the different ways that everyone is doing it, so maybe you will find some inspiration, but I can
20
tell you that commonly, the answer is that people are like “I don't measure it, but yeah, maybe I should.” [both laughing] I hear this one quite often, but on the other hand, also, one coach said that it's kind of hard to measure because it's really like a development journey. And I don't think that you necessarily need to put numbers on it. But doing it, as you said, in some qualitative method, or, for example, if the person is in some leadership role, or a team leader, then talking to the team and see how, um, how the team has evolved or how they perceived it…
T Yeah.
I
… that the approach of the of the leader has evolved.
If I can ask, when did you start coaching on D&I? The clients. Because from what I
understood, it's not like a finished process with any of them, right? It's that you continue and are still working with them.
T
Yeah. So, it's something that I decided was going to be my thing for when I got to the UK.
And then we've been in lockdown. [laughing] So I've had a couple of proposals out there, but I've only got a few people that I've managed to bring into it. So literally this year.
I
And from what you have observed so far, do you already see some short-term effects of D&I coaching? Maybe during the sessions or when you are talking to the people?
T
Oh my goodness. Definitely. But it's a [pause] it's [sighs] it's harder than I thought it would be. And I don't know how I feel about that. [smiling]
I
And could you maybe share what are your insights? If that's possible?
T
I had a recent session. Where, I don't know, I think it’s really personal. But I love coaching.
And I think the best in people. And a certain part of my bubble has enabled me to be in the world positively and proactively and productively and some of the insights that came out of the session, although that's wonderful that they came out, I don't know if I want [laughing] I don't know if I want to [pause] to [pause] I don't know if that's how I want my contribution to the world to be. And it's important work. But I almost feel like if I have the skills and the ability to actually coach minorities and help them be empowered and help them achieve their best, I don't know whether that is the best use of my talent and energy. Rather than helping somebody unpack things which [pause] I don't know. I'm still wrestling with it.
I
Yeah, I believe, or I think that you'll figure it out as you go because it's also something very, very new.
T
21 Yeah, exactly, exactly.
I
Also, one topic that I would like to discuss are the possible challenges and maybe
recommendations as well. So, um, in your personal opinion, what do perceive as the biggest challenge that is connected to D&I coaching?
T
Um, cost is, yeah, the cost of coaching can be prohibitive, the cost of D&I coaching. And the number of people you can affect with it. And, you know, if an organization wants to make this number of changes, D&I is just part of it. And D&I coaching is just going to affect that, I think that it can be prohibitive.
I
And are there some other resources that you see missing in companies, other than money? For D&I.
T
[pause] Well, I think it's a [pause] if people had endless amount of budget, then they could give their time and attention to this. But I think it competes for too many things. So, you almost need the budget to be there. So, people go, “Oh, what should we be doing?” So, yes, the will of people, more greater understanding. But I think if you have more budget, that would all come.
I
What would you say that are the biggest advantages that are connected to D&I coaching, if you compare it with other methods that are dealing with D&I, such as D&I training or D&I education?
T
I think that it's, um, sorry, can you repeat the question? The first one?
I
Yeah, what do you perceive as the biggest advantages of D&I coaching compared to other methods dealing with D&I, like D&I training, D&I education, etc.
T
When you're talking about diversity and inclusion, people and their diversity is complex. And you cannot look at somebody, you cannot look at me and say, “Oh, I walk in the world as a black woman. And that's my diversity.” There are so many things that sit underneath that.
And so, you can have a training that makes people aware of the topic, that makes people aware of some key concepts. But in order to show up in the world, and get actively involved in diversity and inclusion, you have to do that deep work yourself to understand all of those identities that play, because only then can you be curious about other people. And I think that the thing is, it's approaching everybody with that curiosity, that is not about labelling them.
And saying, “I therefore understand your experience”. And I feel like training is going to get people to think, “Oh, this person's experience is that”, coaching allows people to realize, “Oh, I cannot possibly understand who anyone is. I've just got to have conversations and learn and ask.” I think that's the riches pieces, it stops the labelling, and gets you to approach it from curiosity.
22 I
Are there, maybe, on the other hand, also some limitations or even disadvantages that you would see connected to D&I coaching?
T
Well, it depends how directional the coach is. So, I keep a very non directional process, and leave it very much up to the person to define what success looks like to them. So essentially, that person's learning is only up to as much as they are happy to learn.
I
I'm not sure if you can already answer this for D&I coaching and if not, please just answer this for D&I in general. But from your observations of what you see that companies are doing and how they are implementing D&I coaching or D&I practices, what would you identify as some common mistakes and also, the best practices of people implementing D&I coaching or D&I in companies?
T
I think it touches on what I said to you earlier on, but that diversity and inclusion as it relates to coaching… I think it's that you have to [pause] unless you're coaching for diversity and inclusion, that you don't need to do this work. Actually, coaches should be doing this work for everyone because that's how we make coaching inclusive. And I feel like the coaching
industry is making diversity and inclusion an othering thing. And it concerns me that unless you're planning on your niche being diversity and inclusion, that coaches don't equip
themselves with the skills and awareness around it. So, I felt like it's just the splitting up of things.
I also feel like that there is the thought that people of colour will want a coach that has a diversity and inclusion background, which is ridiculous, because if I was going to get executive coaching, I would want to get executive coaching, I would just want somebody to have the understanding of my background and curiosity as it relates to it. I don't need for that coach to be a person of colour to understand my experience, because nobody could
understand my experience, because I've got all these other diversities around it. So, I think it's just the challenge, I think you said the challenge, or what was the word you said? Did you say challenge?
I
I was asking more about what you see as the best practices to implementation and also some common mistakes that some companies are –
T
So, I think I'm talking about the mistakes around it, which is just around that piece of believing of who diversity and inclusion coaching is for and inclusion coaching is for and what the actual background of that coach needs to look like. Best pract –
I
Maybe if I could just elaborate on that very quickly because I think it's very interesting and important what you said and that’s maybe something that I didn't realize before that maybe for some people coming from diverse backgrounds, if they are offered D&I coaching, they can perceive that it's something even offensive or nothing that they would want to go through.
23
And actually, many of the coaches are saying that they do not focus on D&I solely, like they do not go into the coaching process with the intention, “Okay, it’s going to be focused on D&I”, but that it's very often something that comes up during the process. And then it shifts more towards inclusion coaching, but actually a lot of them are not starting the process with the intention, “Okay I'm a D&I coach, and we're going to be focusing only on D&I.”
T
Right, okay.
I
And from what you said, I perceive it also in the kind of similar way, that you are also not very convinced, please correct me if I got it wrong, about going to the companies and directly saying that I will be doing D&I coaching explicitly.
T
No, no, no, exactly. So yeah, coaching is coaching. But I think that the language around it all is still being unpacked. People are just using terms quite generically. I think. And I think that where my concern about that comes from is, what I was saying about [name of a platform], I know that, you know, on [name of the platform], it has me down as a coach with a
background in diversity and inclusion. So, when their cohorts come that are minorities, I get put forward for this cohort. And I think that that thinking is wrong.
I
Yeah, for sure. What I really found also kind of interesting during my interviews, so I was having an interview with someone who is like HR director, and he also is white male, and he told me that he perceived that he cannot do D&I coaching himself because he is not
representing any diversity group. But I just felt that that's kind of crazy.
T
A cop out.
I
Obviously, there are other diversities and not only the visible ones, and exactly as you said, like, not any one of us belongs just in one box. So, when I heard that, I was kind of like [making a sound].
T
But the other preconception is that [pause] I felt like the last few years, I think white fragility kind of unpacked some of it. But people are very conscious of they're going to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing or the people “I don't identify with them”. Just do the work. Do the work. Have the conversations. And if you honestly see, if you honestly realize that we are all diverse for different reasons and are held back by different privileges or empowered by different privileges. Once you see that, you realize that anyone can do diversity and inclusion coaching.
I
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I was also kind of surprised when I heard that, and I'm not sure if he thinks that people would really want someone who is diverse, coaching them on this topic, and so it wouldn't be coming from him. So, yeah. I just –
24 T
And that's why I asked you if you found yourself with a lot of women of colour in this seat.
I
Yeah, like I’ve talked with, I think, three out of the eleven people.
T
Okay. Oh, okay.
I
I still have more interviews coming up. But I can tell you that it's mostly women, that I found in this area.
Sorry that I jumped in, I just wanted to elaborate on that.
T
No, that's fine.
I
So yeah, you wanted to, I think, continue with the best practices afterwards.
T
Yeah, I don't really think I had many. [laughing]
I
Yeah, no problem. [laughing] And also one question that I'm always asking, if you could give one recommendation, or it could be more, if you want to, to companies that want to
implement D&I coaching, what would it be?
T
I don't know, I don't know whether I think that D&I coaching should be in every organization.
So, I think [pause] I guess if the people that you have tossed with moving the dial as it relates to diversity and inclusion, are not active in this space, then they need to do the deep work themselves. So that they really can, um, can be bought into it. Because otherwise, they're just ticking a box.
